Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome. On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about how we recognize and deal with people who are in the autism spectrum. And our special guest today is Cheryl Pankhurst.
She's a special edition, I'm sorry, special education special. She's been doing this for over twenty five years, and she's out of Toronto, Canada. She's also a fellow podcaster. She has a podcast called Teen Minds Redefined. So she also has a podcast for teens.
And in addition to Cheryl, we also have Janiyah, a 17 year old girl from Amsterdam, New York. How are you both doing? Good. I'm great. Thank you.
Good. Thank you. So let's you know me. I like to dive right in. So, Cheryl, tell us.
What do you do? So right now, I'm in transition. I have just retired from, twenty five plus years in the high school field. I used to work one on one with kids and their parents and their teachers to advocate, give them a voice, create as much of an inclusive environment safe, and just educate them on how we can support our kids and how we can find the strengths and work on their strengths rather than focusing on weaknesses. And so I'm in transition now.
I've just retired and, again, starting the podcast, and the podcast will also morph into a a coaching membership for teens and parents and teachers. Nice. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about why why did you start this this podcast now that you're retiring? You know, because I loved working in the high school system.
But what I started to really notice is, you know, there's a lot of red tape and politics and bureaucracy that I was just decided I'd had enough of. And I noticed that when I worked one on one with a kid and collaborated and and try to find out what's hard and so and help them solve problems with them collaborating, not imposing, answers. And then sitting down with parents who were struggling with their teams at home or sitting down with teachers who just didn't understand what was happening in the classroom. That was my jam. When I had those meetings, I felt the energy.
I felt like, okay. This is what I need to do. This is where I need to to move forward and really help on a much larger scale in the podcasting arena. Awesome. That's awesome.
Now I'm gonna ask you this question. Why are people retarded? Oh, lord. Let me let me also say this to the listeners who are like, why in the world did you just ask a ridiculous question? I asked that question in that ridiculous manner intentionally because people out there really do ask real questions like that.
This this show isn't about presentation and impressing you. It's about reality. And reality is people still think like that. And even though this younger generation is being taught, to be a little more sensitive, their parents aren't. Their parents weren't because they weren't you know, we weren't taught that.
So people ask questions like that. Now I I personally would never ask a question like that, but I'm asking that to make a point. But why why are there's why why does it seem like there's more and more people who are, mentally disabled in one form or another? Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about the retarded term.
Mhmm. And I'm gonna say that because let's define retarded. Retarded means stop or reverse. And so if you're talking about mentally retarded, you're talking about someone whose brain has stopped. And so I think I'm gonna say I'm gonna try to be cool here, Janaya, and say, cancel culture, that's one we're gonna cancel.
And, you know, honestly, let's let's talk about racism. Let's talk about LGBTQ plus. There's all terms that we use that we no longer use because we know better. We know now what's offensive to people. We know how that makes people feel.
So even though it's something we learned, once we know that we're offending somebody, we're done. There shouldn't even be a discussion. That's offensive to me. That says something about me that's not right, so we're not gonna say that anymore. Does that answer your question?
Oh, yeah. I yeah. I I yeah. I asked that because I was, you know, looking for that answer. What about the people who are genuinely ignorant?
They do not know that that word is truly offensive because that's what they grew up. I I worked with a woman because I I I teach sewing as well. And a few years ago, I had a woman that, I don't know what her mental disability was, but she lived in a home, and she had to have a worker that would bring her. And I and I it was my first time really teaching someone with a mental disability how to do some sewing. I adjusted, you know, I adjusted it to to make sure that she understood, and I just figured it out because I that's what I do with anything I teach.
But she herself would say to me, yeah. I'm retarded because that's what she was taught, you know, growing up, and she was probably in her forties, I think. You know, that's what she that's what she was taught when she was growing up. So to her, it wasn't offensive word at all. It was just what she is.
So for those people who have grown up with that word, just being used as a normal regular everyday word, and they genuinely don't know that it is actually offensive to those who care about that community. And it's really those who care about the community that get upset because they don't see those people as, you know, worthless people whose brains have stopped. Mhmm. You know? And and that's how it's perceived.
How do we respond to the people who actually still think that way? And, yes, I understand why it's offensive. I personally don't use the word because I do understand that. But if they don't understand that, is there a way that we can correct them without attacking them? Well, I would say, I'm sure that's your terminology from what you know.
But here, let me show you something. Let me tell you something. Let me advocate for someone who may not have a voice to advocate for themselves. And that's Mhmm. That's where that's where, you know, people who are ignorant are just typically very scared or very curious.
They just don't know. So I think as a community of humans, this is where we start advocating, and we just keep giving a voice to those who don't, or we give a stronger voice to those who don't have a loud enough voice, and just keep teaching and educating and showing and and just standing up where the people who are, you know, the victims to the terminology that does not really reflect who they are. Yes. Now I will now I I I'll share something with the audience that I talked I shared with you, and, you know, in conversation before this. I have run into people that are, on, you know, on the autism spectrum, in particular tell me that they have Asperger's syndrome.
And I don't I didn't know a lot about people in the autism spectrum. It just wasn't something I was ever I just didn't know a lot about. Not that I had an issue with anybody, but I just didn't know Mhmm. That the people that I thought were socially awkward, It wasn't just that they were socially awkward. They actually had Asperger's syndrome.
And I learned a lot because I actually sat down with a man, who's he's a part of my salsa dancing community. And he sat down, and we had a heart to heart conversation one day in my office. He just stopped by because he was nearby, and we were you know, I was sewing while we're talking. And, and he explained to me what it's like on his end. And it was the first time in my life that I had insight into what it's like to be someone who doesn't understand jokes and doesn't get, emotional social cues, doesn't understand certain emotional things.
I never knew what that was like, and I never knew that that wasn't that that's, you know, what it was like for them. And I appreciated him being open and honest with me because it allowed me to to understand a perspective I had never seen before. You know? I don't I I don't know what it I didn't know what that was like. And so I appreciated him talking to me like that.
But what I wanna ask you related to that Mhmm. Is I think that I'm not alone in that. I think sometimes we think people are just weird or socially awkward. Oh, that person is just a weirdo. They just blur it out whatever they want whenever they want.
They don't have any sense. And we because we assume that they're born with all the same stuff we're born with. And they're not. I don't know all the technical terms of of all the stuff that they're you know, you do, but I just understand that. How do we tell the difference between when someone's socially awkward because they are just weird, or maybe they're on the spectrum.
I said it that way on purpose because that's words people use. So I would say if someone is socially awkward, I think we could even just say shy. They don't feel worthy to be in the company they're in. They might just have difficulty making eye contact or initiating conversation, and they may eventually warm up in in a comfortable zone. Can it also I'm sorry.
Can it also be, like, anxiety too? Exactly. Social anxiety can be Okay. Something it and those are the types of, characteristics of someone with social anxiety. So they might not be able to initiate a conversation.
They may not be able to have, eye contact. They, they may avoid these situations because they feel like they're not worthy to be in that situation, or their anxiety does not allow them to be in that situation. If you are someone who is on the spectrum, however, so Asperger's is actually a term they don't usually use anymore, it is still Autism Spectrum Disorder. Asperger's was what they, noted as the highest functioning of autism. Mhmm.
So you could pretty well navigate the world with Asperger's. There was just some social differences, that you would be able to pick up on. But under the umbrella of Asperger's, you would see that's that people have a very black and white communication. So on the verbal side of it, black and white communication, they do not see anything in a gray area. They would not understand anything other than something literal.
So for example, you're in the theater and you say go break a leg, they're like, oh my god. Why would I wanna go break my leg? So and it's very much like that. They don't understand sarcasm, and they don't what they nonverbally won't understand is if you're giving them a dirty look or you're shutting them out. You're crossing your arms.
You don't want them in your space. They don't understand that. So they would still move forward and you would be irritated that this person's not understanding your nonverbal cues, but they would not understand your nonverbal cues. Now I'm gonna just disclaim this. Not every person with autism has the exact same characteristics, so I'm not lumping everyone into the same category.
These are just broad spectrum. Very difficult making eye contact, very difficult understanding justice in their eyes. So for example, I'm gonna I'm gonna go into the high school and my best friend has a has a girlfriend. Bob has a girlfriend. Girlfriend's name is Jane, and I see Jane talking to another man in the another boy in the hallway.
If I'm on the spectrum, I'm angry. I'm acting up. That's not justice. That's not fair that they are with another man or another boy because boyfriend and girlfriends do this and this is the rule. Oh.
So it's justice and sometimes they're right in their, perception of justice, but sometimes they have their own perception perception of justice, of what's fair. I know. I have one question. Be yes? Is it, like, possible, like, is it possible, like, for, like, an I don't know how to say the word.
Like, an autism person, like, a non a non autism person to, like, be, like, very close friends? Absolutely. And once you understand that's a great question because once you understand the intricacies of being on the spectrum and you're not offended by, oh, he he doesn't understand the dirty look, so I'm going to say to him, I'm angry with you right now, or you're in my personal space. Could you please back up? Two steps.
Or you're talking too loud right now. I need you to like, if you verbalize what normally we could say to our friends sitting in a room, he could be looking at a friend, and you can like your mother, when you're growing up, you knew that look that your mother gave you. You knew. You should have to say a word. Better shut up.
Right. So you think of parenting a kid with autism. Oh my god. They're not understanding any of that. So there's a frustration.
So teachers will be sitting at the back and front of the classroom, and you will have a student with autism who's not understanding that they're not supposed to be clicking their pen or tapping their foot because the teacher's staring at them. Yeah. They don't get the stare. So is it like do you have, like, a a little kid mindset? Because, like, when you're a little kid, like, you don't, like, know what's, like, right from wrong and, like, don't understand a lot of stuff.
Not necessarily because a little kid, a a typical, kid would be able to learn those skills eventually. But someone with autism may never understand those skills. They may learn them only because they're gonna memorize them. So they might be able to, in in social groups or social education, might say, oh, my mom's smile is up, so she's happy with me right now. My own smile is down, so or my mom's mouth is down, so she's not happy with me right now.
They may not understand why, but they start to be able to memorize the triggers or the characteristics of facial expression or, oh, okay. If my mom's doing that, it means she's not happy or, you know, she's doing this, she's happy and she's so I'm I'm expressing, like, body language. Mhmm. So typically, someone with autism, although a younger child will develop those skills and learn them and understand them, someone with autism may never be able to do that. So, yes, you could be friends, and you know what?
If you could be if you could understand that your friend can sit in the same room with you, and you can both be doing video games, or you can both be doing something on your own and have zero conversation, that person with autism is 100% comfortable with that. Wow. And you might be thinking, we didn't even say anything. How could but that's okay because there's no need to say anything. Kids with autism have no interest in small talk.
Like, zero. And you would say to I would say to my students, hello, David. How was your weekend? Why? Not, oh, it was fine.
How was yours? They don't care. Literally don't care. They don't have any use for small talk. So if you can understand those things and still be comfortable and understand there's no offense to you, this is just how they learn, how they communicate, and how they process information, yes, anyone can be friends with this kid with autism and should definitely try.
Yeah. Yeah. I know I know for me once I understood, and this this person expressed to me what it's like growing up and not understanding social cues and, you know, having to work really hard to get what people mean in communication. You know, I I really grew an appreciation for how hard he works, you know, at everyday thing. And he's a he's a great person.
I just thought he was awkward and weird. But that didn't faze me because if someone's awkward and weird, I'll still be friends with him. I don't care. You know what I mean? I know people got their issues and reasons for being awkward and weird.
So it doesn't that that doesn't faze me. So I, you know, I I never pushed him away because of that. But there's a lot of people out there that will push people away because they're weird, quote, unquote. It's I I keep saying weird because that's usually the biggest term that at least that I've heard used for people who are just different in any kind of way. Yeah.
And so what would you say to those people who are who just see someone as weird, when in fact they may be on the spectrum and maybe, I don't know, I think that maybe we should try to understand people instead of just sloughing them off as weird. My first response in school to any teacher that had those kind of responses or a parent, I always said, that's somebody's child. Mhmm. So there's your first. That's somebody's child.
That could be your child, that could be your sister, that could be, you know. So step back, be curious, you can ask questions, you can ask, you can I mean, we know we can research Wikipedia, left, right, and center, but you can ask questions? You can ask a person with autism anything you want as long as you're asking them yes or no questions, black and white questions. Oh, okay. I wouldn't say to an autistic person, how are you feeling today?
What I would say is, are you happy or are you sad? Are you warm? Are you cold? I wouldn't say if I wanna go out and make plans with my autistic friend, it's not gonna be, hey, what do you wanna do Saturday night? It would be, do you wanna go to a movie, or do you wanna go to dinner?
Yes or no. Black and white. No subjective thinking. It's very on point. Okay.
So the subjective thinking piece is is the biggest challenge for them. Yeah. And in school, it's the same thing. I mean, when you're talking to teachers who want, you know, write an essay on the best part of your summer. Oh my gosh.
That could send a kid with autism into a frenzy instead of saying, what did you do in June that you really like to do that had to do with sports? Like, just very narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow so that they don't have to go broad thinking. So you just have to black and white. So you just have to be, like, very, like, very specific towards them? %.
Exactly right. No. I I didn't I didn't know that he was I never knew that. I don't know what you know. I the other thing I wanna ask you about, I know that I've seen this, and I'm respectful of it once I know and understand it.
Many of them are really bothered. I don't even know if really bothered is the right word because it's stronger than just bothered, but, very, very, very upset with loud noises. The sensory issues are incredibly, characteristic of someone on the autism spectrum. So there could be a tag in their shirt or their sock is on funny or the lights are too bright or the noise is too loud or, they're too hot or they're too cold or they're hungry, and sometimes what they won't have is the skills to say, oh my god. Turn down the music.
No. You will see their form of communication could be very aggressive, very loud, and it doesn't connect for you. I have one question. I ain't gonna cut you off. Of course.
Is there any possible way you could speak side language with them? You absolutely could, but you would have to learn together. Oh. So 100% you could and there's many, many children born with nonverbal autism communication, so they can't speak at all. So this is where they would learn to sign.
So that's a great question. Yeah. I didn't think about that. I had an aunt who was, who was deaf and my mother, she knows sign language. She teaches sign language.
And sign language is more complex than people realize. And I under I I'm saying that because I understand your response and that you'd have to learn with them, because people think that sign language is just one language and it's not. A person a a person in The US speaking sign language and a person in Mexico speaking sign language may not be able to talk to each other. Exactly. Because the languages are made up in each country that they're in.
So because it's a it's a physical language, you know. It's not, it's not verbal like we're used to, or or audible. So I that to me makes a lot of sense. So when the students first yeah. And it was a good question.
And when students first start to learn when they come into high school and they are nonverbal, a very effective way of communicating is pictures. So we would have our we I have multiple students in my high school that would never be able to speak. So we would have pictures of a toilet, pictures of a hamburger, pictures of a clock, pictures of a sweater, and he would be able to go pull it down and we knew what he needed. So if you can imagine, I know we've all seen or probably heard of, verbally aggressive autism, or they have temper tantrums and they're throwing chairs around the room and that is very real, but that is just a way of them to communicate something they that is just troubling them, but they have no idea how. I have one question.
Be a very heightened response. Yes. What is, like, the first early signs of, like, autism? It can usually be diagnosed as early as two, and what you would typically see, and I hate I don't wanna pigeonhole this, but many many kids will walk on their tippy toes. Many kids will literally will not get dressed, hate clothing, or will wear the exact same thing every single day without fail.
They will eat the exact same thing at the exact same time every day. This is breakfast, and that's only breakfast, and it never changes. They struggle again to make eye contact. They would struggle to understand any kind of humor or joke or anything that isn't black and white thinking for them. I will tell you, I'm very sarcastic as a person.
I'm extremely sarcastic. Everybody knows me knows I joke around a lot. And so dealing with someone who's who's on this in the spec on the autism spectrum and knowing that they don't get it, it's made me a little more if I'm aware of it, I do handle them differently. Mhmm. Because now I understand that they're not gonna get my jokes and they're not just, you know, weirdos or don't have any common sense because they don't get jokes.
They just don't actually get it, so I have to make sure I'm explaining that it's a joke. And most of them will laugh once they understand it's a joke, but it has to be explained. And so, on that note, what advice do you have for the teenagers that are out there right now that may have, people in the spectrum around them? And, you know, you said some ways that they can recognize it, but how do they handle, you know, people in the spectrum around them and maybe be nicer to them than some of their peers are? You know, I would say if you are noticing that they're looking uncomfortable, you could say, are you hot?
Are you cold? Are you hungry? Is this too loud? Is this too noisy? Is this too bright?
And and start asking them how they feel, what do you what do you need, but ask them what they need specifically. I would say, understand that if they're not looking at you or having a conversation with you, please don't be offended. That's just they don't that's just the way they communicate. I would say you can ask them, do you need space? Do you need contact?
Some people with autism need sensory hug, like a really strong Really? Oh, yeah. Hard hug. Others, no contact at all, but they might say, I need space, and they could walk away for three minutes, take a breath, come back, and they've been able to self regulate. And to be able to catch someone before they get to the point where they just can't communicate, if you rec start recognizing those signs, you know, that's where that's where things really come into play instead of waiting until you know, I know there's there's triggers.
I know there's if you if you're in a classroom and you know that it's very loud and you're watching someone start to rock or they can stim, their hands will go like this, or you can just start to tell them first thing, do you need your headphones? Is this too loud? Would you like to go for a walk? You know, just asking them point blank what they need and understanding it it's not offensive when they don't reach out like a a like a typical teenager would. Maybe trying to be more sensitive to them and That makes a lot of sense because in my school, we have autism kids there too.
And when I'd be going when I'd be going to, like, like, the bathrooms or going to, to, like, the guy's office, I would just see them walking around. Like, I'll see them walking around a lot of times, and they'll say hi, and then they'll wave at me with them. They I'll wave at them back, but I just never understood, like, why they, like, walk around a lot until you told me. Mhmm. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I worked with one student who intimidated most of the kids in the school because he was very, very loud when he was triggered, like, very loud. So he's, like, six foot three, and he would yell, and he would swear, and he would scream, and I would just stand there and just wait till he was finished, take him to my office, and that was his safe space. He could say whatever he wanted in my office.
But one day before that happened, I said to him, how does it feel when you get to that point? Like, if you're if you're at a level one, you're super happy, everything's working, all the temperatures are right, you're not hungry, you're not tired, everything's great. But level five is uncontrollable anger. How does that feel? And he describe I'll never forget this.
He described this to me. He said, it's like a wall of fire right in front of my face, like a blazing wall of fire, and I thought, wow. So they use similes? That's how that's how he described it to me. And, again, not everybody's the same, but that's just how he like, my five is a and so imagine yourself in a room that's on fire.
What are you doing? You're yelling. You're screaming. You're escaping. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. Wow. Well, it it has been really, really, really good talking to you, Cheryl. But before we go, could you tell us a little bit more about what people can expect with your new podcast and, where they can go to hear it?
Absolutely. It's going to be on any podcast, Irina. So Apple or Spotify. My website is CherylPankers.com. And what I'm gonna be doing is typically, it'll be a solo podcast for most of the part where I just pick a topic, and I'm just gonna riff on it.
Exactly what we did today sort of thing, just pick something and go. And hopefully, people who are sitting there going, oh, I had no idea. Like, tonight, it was great today, and I'm hoping that I am going to be able to not just speak to parents. It's teenagers, it's the parents, it's the people who love them, and the teacher sitting in the classroom going, I don't know what this means. I don't know what to do.
I wanna create a community where we are all working together. So I want teenagers on that on in in a group, I want teachers in a group, I want parents in a group to say, hey, Janiyah, what happened today that that we would have been able to do better? And Janiyah would be able to help us with that, and go back and forth, and just create this community of support. So would would teenagers who are on the spectrum be be, part of the audience as well? Absolutely.
And I would like to, as we move forward with the podcast, turn it into a membership So we are able to meet on a monthly or weekly basis and talk about how things went that week at school, and how can we help, and how can we work together, and how can we really listen to our teenagers and figure out, like, they're just rock stars. Sorry. You're rock stars. Yeah. Well, I think that is awesome.
I love the the concept, and it's definitely especially niched, you know, idea. But I think that that's good because we have too many broad general useless conversations all over the place all the time right now. I'm really grateful for your for your topics here and who you're who you're working to support. I think this is really, really helpful. There's not too many people out there.
It's people talking down and telling teenagers how, and this is the way life goes. And, no, that's not what it is. That's not what it is. There's You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
I mean, not not just teenagers, but none of us. If somebody's talking down to you or at you or you listening, hell no. You just you still in the room, but you left a while ago because you're on a beach in Maui. Not so. Oh, no.
They just had fires. You're on a beach in in wherever wherever. But you know what I mean? So but anyway, it has been amazing, talking to you, and, I'm I'm happy to support your new, podcast coming up, and I hope all my listeners travel over there, and see what you can learn. Thank you.
I'm right back up. That I think that people will learn a lot from you if they just listen. I mean, in the conversation we had off air, I learned a whole bunch of stuff. So, I'm I'm hoping that that that does I genuinely hope that does well for you. And thank you, Jania, again, for coming on and being the that voice of the team, and you could just ask the questions that we would welcome.
Yes. Thank you. Thank you both. This was just so fun, and I learned a lot too. Yeah.
I learned a lot. I'm glad. That's what this is about. Yeah. And now for a mind shifting moment.
I hope you were really listening today. I will tell you, speaking with Cheryl on and off the air, I learned a lot. I learned some things that I will take with me. I think it's important that we take the time to at least try to understand others who are different than us. Try to understand other people's struggles.
You might approach them differently. Try to think outside of yourself. That's what I want you to take away from this. This is about more than just people in the autism spectrum. It's also about seeing pea learning other people, seeing people who are different than you and trying to understand them.
My hopes are that in today's session, you are able to hear that and that you're able to try to get to know people who are different than you. It will enhance your life. If you let it. Thank you for listening to mind shift power podcast, Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter. If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit FatimaBay.com/podcast.
Remember, there's power in shifting your thinking. Tune in for next week.
