Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. Today we have with us Brooke Guerin. She's a licensed clinical social worker in Illinois.
She's the owner of Uniquely You Behavioral Health, and also the owner of Affirming Minds Coaching and Consulting. And we're gonna talk about neurodivergence today or the neurodivergent. And she herself is also neurodivergent, which is awesome and one of the reasons I had her on the show today. How are you doing, Brooke? I'm doing really well.
Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. I think this is a a good subject to talk about. So let's start off with I like to dive right in. Let's start off with discussing what exactly does the word neurodivergent mean.
Sure. So neurodivergent is a very all encompassing term, that it refers to our brains. So it talks about our neurotype, and, it so there is a certain subset of the population whose brains diverge, divergent, from the norm. And so that is people who might be autistic, ADHD, have OCD, trauma, different things like that. Okay.
I like that explanation because I think a lot of times that word is used consistently, but I know for a fact that not everybody knows what it actually means. You know, sometimes I think when people use the word, they're only referring to people who are autistic or they're only referring to people who are whatever. Yep. Can you give us a few examples of what titles we'll hear, that fall under that category? Sure.
So I, typically, when I'm talking neurodivergence, I am a the little spiel that I always say is autism, ADHD, social anxiety, or anything that impacts someone's ability to engage with others. So, a lot of autism and ADHD, I'm sure we'll talk about today, and, you know, just some of that, like, social social anxiety kind of stuff. Okay. So when it comes to the neurodivergent, what are some of the challenges that people who are neurodivergent face? Totally.
Man, there's a lot. You know, I think that some of the the biggest and, honestly, most harmful things that people face are, really just other limitations that other people put on them, based on their their diagnosis or their label. Right? And so that might be, you know, your ADHD, so you can never be organized or you're always late. It might be, if you're autistic, it's that you won't have friends or don't know how to do x y z.
And I think that, really, people who are neurodivergent, their brains they're they're so different. Right? They, you've met one neurodivergent person. You've met one neurodivergent person. And I think that, you know, really the the biggest struggle that anybody that I work with and, myself included is those, barriers that other people put on us.
I think that is an excellent point, and that's actually what we're here to talk about today. I'm a big believer that we should not live under labels, neurodivergent or otherwise. Mhmm. Labels can be very limiting when we believe them. And I think that, labels are sometimes b s and or sometimes our our idea of that label could be what's b s.
Totally. I I I think that autistic people who are in the autistic autism spectrum are good example of what you just said. One one autistic person is not all of them. There's so much, so many variances, to them, and some of them you can't see it right off the bat, and some of them you can. You know?
Right. Do you feel like Exactly. If you had to pick if you had to pick one under the one type of of neurodivergence under that umbrella that faces the most challenges, would you say it's autism, or am I wrong? Well, I think it depends on the lens that you come at it from. Okay.
I I actually oh, I think that it it happens when we have intersections of identities that, that's when we can kind of talk, about the biggest struggles that people face. I would say as a, diagnosis, if we're just going diagnosis, I would honestly say that people who are ADHD, face some of the the greatest stigma in terms of, being called lazy, in terms of people not recognizing ADHD as a, quote, unquote, real diagnosis, and that it is often, you know, pushed as a moral failing or something that they're just not trying hard enough at. But then, you know, from that same idea, when we look at autistic women, are often not diagnosed until much later because of the, diagnostic criteria, around, diagnosing autism. I didn't know that. Why is that?
I said I didn't know that. Why is that? Yeah. So some of that, is related to, some inherent sexism within the the diagnostic criteria. Looking at things like, well, if you can make eye contact, you're you're not autistic.
Or if you don't like I've I've actually heard Sykes say, if you don't like trains, you can't be autistic. Absurd. What? Right? Yeah.
Crazy. And, you know, when we look socially, and within our culture, right, like, often women aren't, you know, given a train as their first thing to play with. They're given a baby doll. Right? So we're we're training with off the bat, you know, to be, quote, unquote, nurturing, to be those roles and to have those attributes.
Right? We're training those attributes into them that are often and misappropriately so associated with autism of, like, oh, well, you're you care about others. You want to be around others, so you can't be autistic. And, that's just so not true. And, you know, I think that women, are kind of just better at masking, which is that act of, pretend.
Right? We're we're really good at acting and pretending and being quiet when we need to be quiet. Right? Those are very good womanly, attributes. And so we're we're often looked over, in the the doctor client relationship for being autistic.
I think very often, and this goes beyond neurodivergence, really. Very often, we mistake labels for content. It's something I talk about a lot. I just find myself circling back to that subject just a lot. You know, we look at someone, we say, oh, you wear this label, so you must be this and that.
You know? You know? And that's often not true. It's often very, very much not true. Yep.
And I yeah. I just in so many ways, I I like to put it this way. We look at a can, and the label says can of peaches, but when you open it up, it's a it's green beans. And we often do that. We're well, you're peaches, so you're sweet and kind, and then we're upset when we taste you and you are not peaches because you're really not the label that other people slap on you.
At least sometimes you are you are you that label belongs on you, but the contents are not what are not realistic. And that's why I think that this conversation is important. I think, you know, before I started having podcast and before I had personal conversations with a couple of people who were autistic, I didn't really have a full understanding. I still don't think I do, but I didn't have a full understanding of what neurodivergence is, you know, what autism really is. And, I'm kinda glad that I have this platform where I get to talk to people like you and a few others where I get to actually learn something because I know I'm not the only one who's that ignorant.
I know I'm not. You know? Mhmm. Now I wanna ask you. For people who are listening, who are like, why are we talking about neurodivergent or people with autism?
Or I don't really care because they're not my family, so I don't have to deal with them. Why should we care even if they're not in our family? Absolutely. You know, I think, one big reason is that, and and this is gonna get a little complex, but, neurodivergence can be acquired. So that means that if you have a traumatic brain injury, you get into a car accident.
Right? You can point. You can then engage with the world on a completely different neurological basis than you had before. Right? So we need to be making sure that our systems are accessible for people of all neurotypes because you might be fine today, and you may not, you know, even physically.
Right? You may be able to walk today, and we should still care about wheelchair access because you could lose access to your legs tomorrow. Same thing with our neurotype. And, you know, I think that it's the more that we talk about neurodivergence, the more that, we open up doors for people to be able to express their differences, the more that you're gonna find out. Right?
Like, you were just saying, hey. I actually didn't know that this person was neurodivergent. I didn't know that this person was autistic or that this person struggled with ADHD. And so if we're not talking about it and we're not making things accessible for others, you know, it can be possible that someday we ourselves acquire a neurodivergence. Right?
Or that someone that we really care about walks into our life, and maybe they've been masking their whole life, and they don't find out that they are autistic until they're 43. And that And I've seen that I've seen things like that happen, the different sort of diagnoses. And, some of them actually, now that I understand the the definition of neurodivergent, some of them were neurodivergent. They just didn't know because we didn't have the systems in place to really understand. Well, as a society, we didn't understand, I think.
I wanna circle back around to ADHD because I think you brought a very important point. I think before now, a lot of people who are 30 and older were just seen as lazy or stupid because they couldn't pay attention, the way the rest of us could, and their mind runs around like squirrel, you know? And and they're not. And and so I I just wanna say to those who are listening, who maybe you are over 30 and you finally realize you're ADHD or maybe you are younger and you've just discovered it. There are ways around it.
You're not you're not stupid. You're not lazy. You're not an idiot. You just have to find ways around it. You know?
And and I I've seen that where people have been all of their life under that label and because they're under that label. And let me let me rephrase that. Not under the label. Not labeled properly so they didn't know how to handle it, and they just felt like there was something wrong with them, and they're stupid, and they must and those type of thoughts lead to behavior that is not good for them. It leads to them not trying.
It leads to them not giving an effort. It leads to them limiting their own selves, which is what we're gonna talk about next. So, you know, the point of of today's episode is to really talk about not just okay. There's no divergent people around us, but what can they do? So we talked about some of the limits that we put on people.
Can we talk a little more in a little more detail of some of the limits that we put on other people who are neurodivergent? And then I wanna talk about what I wanna disband some of those beliefs. Sure. Yeah. So I think, one of my personal favorite things, to talk to kids and families about, especially when it relates to ADHD, is that, actually, there's a far higher percentage of CEOs that are ADHD than that are neurotypical.
Oh, wow. And, you know, I think that some of those, quote, unquote, negative attributes of an ADHD are of, some of that impulsivity or, you know, being very creative in their approach to things, which can be seen as maybe, you know, going against the grain or being obstinate or, you know, things like that. Those are actually the things that make such an incredible CEO. Right? Because they're willing to make and take risks.
They're willing to say, I don't know have all of the answers to this, and I'm alright with it, and I'm gonna go ahead with this, and I'm gonna give it a try. And so that is just a super cool thing that, you know, often we hear about the negative stats around ADHD, which is higher substance use or far more likely to, become incarcerated. And, yes, a lot of that has to often do with that impulse control piece, right, or self medicating with drugs or alcohol. But when we give ADHDers or other neurodivergent folks a place to grow and a place to flourish, We get CEOs. Right?
We get people who start their own businesses. We get entrepreneurs because they say, no. I don't have all the answers. But I'm pretty sure that I know almost everything about this subject because it's my hyperfocus. So I can make a business out of this.
That's fine. And then they're they're growing businesses. And so I think that that is one of the biggest, you know, misnomers that I like to talk about because, you know, when we talk about ADHD, everybody likes to bring up the negative stuff, but way too few people are like, yeah. And look at all those CEOs. Wow.
That's I'm so glad you brought that up. That is an absolutely excellent point. I did not know that about CEOs in particular. I know that every every negative can be turned into a positive when we want to, and that's just a general principle in life. Okay.
And I think this is no different. Let's talk about autism because I think that there are I think this is also very true with autism, but I'll I'll I'll let you tell it. What are some some positive outcomes that someone with who's listening, who is autistic, and maybe they have been treated as their limitations and only told, well, all you can do is, you know, be on SSI for the rest of your life. What can they do? And I know I wanna I wanna preface say, I know that every every autistic person is not at the same level.
So I am kinda speaking in general terms when I say that. Sure. So, truly, my belief is that people can do whatever it is that they wanna do. Yep. You know, I think that where a lot of the stereotypes about what autism looks like, comes from actually, co occurring disorders.
So, you know, someone with also a learning disability or someone with a developmental delay, not the autism itself. And so, you know, those we we haven't talked about them yet, but, you kind of alluded to some labels and functioning. And functioning labels are, honestly, one of the the biggest things that are incorrect in, when we talk about autism, because when you talk about someone who is, quote, unquote, low functioning, which in general, we don't use functioning labels because how rude to talk about somebody, as low functioning, especially right in front of them. But when we that's that stereotype. Right?
There often are also somebody who who has other stuff going on that is, impacting their ability to engage with the world, whether it's a speech delay or a, you know, there's just so many things that can, occur at the same time but outside of autism. And that is can also be part of the reason why things get missed. Right? And why, especially nineties babies and earlier, that you had to be, quote, unquote, low functioning to get a diagnosis. You had to have those co occurring things like speech delay, learning disability Okay.
Whatever else to get the diagnosis because they weren't looking for, those other nuanced pieces of of autism that are, you know, inherent often in the way that that person is engaging with the world. So I guess to answer your question, because I went off on a little tangent. But, you know, I think that, yeah, really, autistic people can do whatever they they want to do. I think that, you know, we often talk when we talk about autism about people with hyperfocus or, a special interest. Take that hyperfocus.
Take that special interest and do something with it. Right? If you love animals, work at a zoo or be a vet. Be a vet tech. Right?
Be a dog groomer if school's not your thing. Right? There's so many things that we can take people's special interest, and we can turn those into fulfilling and lucrative careers. Absolutely. I don't think you went off a tangent on a tangent at all because I think what you said is very relevant and and important to say.
I love I love that you focus on what people can do instead of what they can't do. You know? I I like focusing on that with people who are neuro normal just in general, because I I think that in life, we tend to once we have a label, oh, you can't do this because you're a woman. You can't do this because you're black. You can't do this because you're tall.
You can't do this because you're Jewish. Blah blah blah, whatever the details are. And that really limits what you actually can do because the truth is all the limitations we really have are the ones we put on ourselves. I really truly believe that. And I do believe that no matter what your quote, unquote disability is, you can turn that into an ability if you want to, if you're determined.
But even if you don't have a disability, you can do that too, You know, just in life, it I don't think it changes because you have a neurodivergent label. It just changes how you do it. I don't change it. I don't think it changes that you do it. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah. And I and I think, you know, the it may change the pace in which you do it. It may pay Right. Change the structure in which you do it. And I think that when we are in supportive environments, that's when we can do whatever it is that we want.
Right? I think True. That the biggest thing, you know, for people listening and, you know, going back to that first question of, like, why should we care, is if we're giving people the best situations, the accommodations that they need to succeed, that's gonna help us succeed. Why would we not want to do that? Exactly.
Exactly. Right? Yes. I think very often we don't have a lot of pressure. Yeah.
Right? We can make it selfish. I want other people to have the accommodations that they need to, you know, do well because maybe they're gonna be the person that makes the next thing that makes my life easier. Maybe they're gonna be the person that makes the app that changes the game for for me, right, in my business. And if we didn't give those, that those accommodations, we didn't give them the space to grow and flourish, so now I don't have the thing that I wanted, and that made my life better.
So even on, like, the most selfish level, we wanna give people spaces to do better, to be better minimally for ourselves. Well, no. It's you you brought a point that I'm I'm con I find myself constantly preaching this preaching this. We all need each other. As human beings, we are made to need, not just want, but need, n e e d, need other humans.
We are built that way. We need each other. And if we don't understand that, that's when we become selfish and stupid. We just do we do. We become selfish and stupid because we we Yeah.
We do stupid things because we don't understand that bigger picture element, you know, that the the you know, I I I can't think of any names right now, but I know that there have been people in the autism spectrum that have done great things for science. I've read about them. I don't remember any of the names right now, but that has happened. Imagine if they were just stayed in the little box and said, you're stupid. You just stay over here.
You know? And we might not use the words directly to say you're stupid, but we we say it with with our actions. You know? And or we just have that mentality which comes out in your in your actions and your attitude and how you view things. Everyone around us is carrying something important for us.
And if we all thought that way, we would treat people differently. And I think that is very relevant to this conversation. I think it's very important we just we we see people as necessary instead of I don't see your importance, so therefore, you're not necessary. Mhmm. And I think when we do that and, again, this goes beyond neurodivergence, but I know that, historically, we have done that as a society to people who are neurodivergent.
Once they have the label, we have this we have this put them in the the stupid category, whatever it is, or the lazy category or the whatever label you wanna give it, and that's wrong because you're you're now limiting what they can do. And, eventually, if everybody around you is telling you have this limit, you begin to believe them. Yeah. And that's bad. That's very discouraging.
So for those who are listening out there right now, what for those who are listening who are not neurodivergent, what can we do to make the world a better place for ourselves and them? Yeah. I think, educating yourself on neurodivergence. Right? You know, listening to a podcast like this, listening to the other episode that you've done on this and Mhmm.
You know, seeking out information from autistic self advocates, learning about what are the needs of neurodivergent people. What is it you know, what are what other things are involved in that neurodivergent umbrella? How can I make my classroom or, my cheer squad or baseball team? How can I make those things better spaces for other people? And I think looking at ourselves first.
Right? What are the things that I need that I, for whatever reason, be it, I'm a man, so I need to push through, or Mhmm. You know, I'm a woman, so I need to just get over it. What are the things that I need that I'm not allowing myself to have? Right?
Why am I not allowing myself to have those things? And then what's so darn bad about letting myself and others have those things? Right? If I don't like that the overhead lights are on and they give me a headache, why am I not raising my hand in class and saying, hey. I got a headache from those overhead lights.
Can we just use a lamp today? What what is stopping us? Right? You know, there's a good chance that there are other people in that same room that don't want the overhead lights on. You're saying that's alright.
Yeah. There you know, what are what are the things that are going on, you know, with your body? Right? Why why are you choosing to wear the clothes that you're wearing? Is it because your mom told you you had to?
Is it because that's what the cool kids wear? Or is it because that's what's comfortable and that's how you learn the best? I'm not going to wear blouses to work. They're uncomfortable. It's not happening.
I'm gonna sit in a therapy session that whole day or in this podcast recording, and I'm gonna be playing with my shirt. Instead, I'm in a comfy sweater because I'm not wearing a blouse. It's just not happening. Yeah. I I get that.
When I know those things, right, when we give ourselves those permissions, we're better, nicer people. You're absolutely right. And we don't realize all the restrictions we put on our minds. And a lot of times, we put our minds in jail. But the truth is we have a key.
We can get out anytime. We just don't realize it. That but that's kind of another conversation too. But, but this has been really, really great talking to you. And so how can people find you?
Yeah. So, you can find our private practice if you are looking for counseling services, therapy. We have neurofeedback as well as, occupational therapy at uniquelyyoubehavioralhealth.com. If you are wanting to, we also have a Facebook and an Instagram also under You behavioral health. If you, are listening to this as a parent who wants the schools to do better, or as a student who wants your college or your high school or where whatever kind of system you are engaged in, to do better for yourself or your peers.
Affirming minds, coaching, and consulting is where I, work with employers. I work with schools on providing more inclusive and affirming spaces, for neurodivergent folks of all kinds. Great. So, again, thank you, Brooke, for coming on today and discussing this topic with us. And I I learned a lot even just in this conversation, more than I thought I would actually.
So it's been really great talking to you, and once again, thank you for coming on. Awesome. Thank you so much. And now for a mind shifting moment. I wanna plan a thought seed in your head today.
Today, we talked about taking the limits off of the neurodivergent, but I wanna talk about a big picture idea related to that. I want you to think right now about all of your shortcomings, all the reasons you can't do what you wanna do. Now hold that thought. Now I want you to think about all of the ways you can get around that roadblock. I want you to picture a road, and that thing you wanna do is on the other side of it.
And all the reasons you think you can't do it are in the middle of that road. You are driving that car. How can you get around it? There's absolutely nothing you want to do that you cannot do. The choice is yours.
Thank you for listening to Mindshift Power Podcast. Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter. If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit FatimaBay.com/podcast. Remember, there's power in shifting your thinking. Tune in for next week.
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